Best and Worst 8th Edition Armies

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The strongest Warhammer Fantasy Battle Armies under the 8th edition rulebook - poll results. We had over 500 people voting and here's the outcome.

Note that: new Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms and Vampire Count army books were released during the vote (so some people will have voted before seeing the new armies).


Voters were asked to choose the 5 best and worst WHFB armies.


Which armies are the most powerful under the 8th edition rules ?

% of all voters / army

46% High Elves
45% Skaven
40% Warriors of Chaos
32% Dark Elves
29% Chaos Daemons
28% The Empire
20% Lizardmen
20% Dwarfs
19% Vampire Counts
16% Orcs and Goblins
10% Ogre Kingdoms
9% Tomb Kings
7% Bretonnia
6% Wood Elves
4% Beastmen




Which are the weakest fantasy battle armies under the WFB 8th ed. rulebook ?

% of all voters / army

65% Wood Elves
45% Bretonnia
40% Beastmen
37% Tomb Kings
27% Ogre Kingdoms
24% Vampire Counts
16% Orcs and Goblins
14% Dwarfs
11% The Empire
10% Lizardmen
8% High Elves
7% Chaos Daemons
5% Dark Elves
3% Warriors of Chaos
2% Skaven



and if you rank both lists (from best to worst) and add the ranks up and then sort them in order of best 8th edition army to worst 8th edition army then this is what you get...

The overall best to worst Warhammer Fantasy Battle army... 
(ranked in order of best + least worst)

1st / Skaven / 3 pts
2nd / Warriors of Chaos / 5 pts
3rd / High Elves / 6 pts
4th / Dark Elves / 7 pts
5th / Chaos Daemons / 9 pts
6th / Lizardmen / 13 pts
7th / The Empire / 13 pts
8th / Dwarfs / 16 pts
9th / Orcs and Goblins / 19 pts
10th / Vampire Counts / 19 pts
11th / Ogre Kingdoms / 22 pts
12th / Tomb Kings / 24 pts
13th / Bretonnia / 27 pts
14th / Beastmen / 28 pts
15th / Wood Elves / 29 pts

I'm sure you'll want to draw your own conclusions, I'm just sorry for the poor old Beastmen because their army book wasn't released that long ago and yet they still come in second bottom in the ranking.

I think anyone who has played against the top 5 know they are disgustingly good, especially Warriors of Chaos (in my opinion).

A note to Games Workshop: I think it's time to bring on those Bretonnian and Wood Elf army books.

Images are © Games Workshop. All rights reserved. Used without permission.

Warhammer Fantasy Magic - chance of successful spell casting, miscasts & irresistable force

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The best number of power dice to use when casting spells

	Number of dice
Casting value	1	2	3	4	5	Suggested # of dice
3+	66.7%	97.2%	92.6%	86.8%	80.4%	2
4+	50.0%	91.7%	92.6%	86.8%	80.4%	2
5+	33.3%	83.3%	92.6%	86.8%	80.4%	3
6+	16.7%	72.2%	91.2%	86.8%	80.4%	3
7+	0	58.3%	88.0%	86.8%	80.4%	3
8+	0	41.7%	82.4%	86.8%	80.4%	4
9+	0	27.8%	74.1%	85.5%	80.4%	4
10+	0	16.7%	62.5%	83.3%	80.0%	4
11+	0	8.3%	50.0%	79.5%	80.0%	4
12+	0	2.8%	37.5%	73.3%	79.3%	5
13+	0	0	25.9%	65.0%	77.9%	5
14+	0	0	16.2%	52.5%	75.2%	5
15+	0	0	9.3%	44.4%	71.0%	5
Average*	3.5	7.0	10.5	14.0	17.5
I. Force **	0	2.8%	7.4%	12.7%	17.7%
Miscast ***	0	2.8%	7.4%	13.2%	19.6%

* Average - average total dice score when you roll that number of dice, eg. rolling 2 dice gives an average score of 7
** I.Force - the likelihood that you will cast a spell with Irresistable Force
*** Miscast - the likelihood that you will miscast a spell if you roll the given number of dice.

How to use this table :-

The percentages in the center of the table show the chance you have of successfully casting a spell given the number of dice you are rolling and the casting value of the spell.

Suggested # of dice is the best number of dice to use to maximise your chances of success.

* Note that a miscast always overrules a spell cast with irresistable force. So if you roll 4 dice and 2 are 1's and 2 are 6's then the spell is miscast. This is why, when you roll 4 or more dice, there is more chance of a miscast than irresistable force.

source: folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calculations/casting.php
(thanks to warphammer.wordpress.com who discovered this resource)

Games Workshop Chicago Grand Tournament Results - 2008

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Chaos Daemons and Dark Elves are on top !

There were 46 games played, the table shows the average army score and the number of games each army was involved in.

The average score was 56, Daemons, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Vampires and Empire all did better than average. That is, generally, the newer army books performed better than the older ones.

data extracted from tournament results posted on gwuscommunity.com

Best Warhammer Army by Battles Won

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A study of which Warhammer Fantasy armies are most successful

Something we've just kicked off in our forum:-

battlereporter.freeforums.org/best-warhammer-army-by-battles-won-t400.html
Post the result of your last battle

Image is © Games Workshop Ltd. All rights reserved. Used without permission.

Warhammer Fantasy Grand Tournament Final Winners Jan 2008 - Stats and Analysis

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Here's my summary:-

It seems that there has been something of a change in fortunes for some of the armies this year. Tomb Kings have risen significantly up the charts while Skaven have slid quite a way down it, and High Elves have increased in popularity quite a lot.

High Elves won the tournament but this seems to be down to a particularly skillful player rather than overall High Elf dominance (although 2nd place was also shared by a High Elf). Their Speed of Asuryan (always strike first rule) may not be having the impact so many people predicted.

Ogre Kingdom's finishing joint 2nd shows that it's not the army but the way you use it that counts !

Bretonnians, Lizardmen and Wood Elves all continue to do well, I'm not sure what happened to Skaven though ?

Anyway, I will revist this once I've had a chance to digest and compare with previous years. I'll open up the floor for any comments...

---

The Best Warhammer Armies and Commanders

Tournament Winner : High Elves
(the only army to win all battles and lose or draw none)

Top 5 in Tournament pts
(30 for a win, 10 for a draw, 1 for a loss)

150 High Elves
130 Ogre Kingdoms
130 Dwarfs
130 High Elves
121 Lizardmen


Top 5 in cumulative Victory pts ("gross VP not net VP")

12146 Lizardmen
11305 Tomb Kings
11271 Lizardmen
11211 Tomb Kings
10969 Beasts of Chaos

* note, the cumuluative victory points here shows the amount of murder/routing involved, which does not necessarily result in a battle win and can even increase the chances of a battle draw - if both sides simply hack each other to shreds :) Having said that the more VPs the more fun you probably had :)

---

The Worst Warhammer Army Commanders

Bottom 5 in Tournament pts
(30 for a win, 10 for a draw, 1 for a loss)

5 Dwarfs
14 Beast of Chaos
14 Empire
14 Ogre Kingdoms
22 Dwarfs

Bottom 5 in Victory Points

3469 Dwarfs
4114 Dwarfs
4323 Ogre Kingdoms
4482 Orcs & Goblins
4489 Ogre Kingdoms

---

The Most Important Bit, the averages

Tournament Point Averages (best to worst)
(ie how many battles won, drawn and lost)

1 Bretonnians 88
2 Tomb Kings 85
3 Wood Elves 82
4 Lizardmen 77
5 Dwarfs 73
6 Empire 73
7 High Elves 73
Average tournament pts = 72.9
8 Dark Elves 68
9 Ogre Kingdoms 67
10 Hordes of Chaos 65
11 Beasts of Chaos 64
12 Skaven 64
13 Vampire Counts 62
14 Orcs & Goblins 54


Victory Point Averages

1 Tomb Kings 8592
2 Lizardmen 8459
3 Bretonnians 8277
4 Skaven 7746
5 Dark Elves 7534
Average VPs = 7476
6 Vampire Counts 7462
7 High Elves 7447
8 Wood Elves 7429
9 Ogre Kingdoms 7294
10 Beasts of Chaos 7227
11 Orcs & Goblins 7139
12 Hordes of Chaos 7096
13 Dwarfs 6925
14 Empire 6761


Armies with the most impressive victories
(based on bonus victory points +2 for masacre, +1 for solid win)

3.5 Wood Elves
3.5 Orcs & Goblins
3.4 Tomb Kings
3.3 Lizardmen
3.2 Bretonnians
3.0 High Elves
3.0 Empire
3.0 Beasts of Chaos
2.9 Dwarfs
2.8 Ogre Kingdoms
2.6 Skaven
2.6 Vampire Counts
2.0 Dark Elves
1.5 Hordes of Chaos

---

Sigmar's summary !

All the armies by Tournament and VP ranking combined
this should give a good indication of the best armies if you want to kill AND win :)

3 Tomb Kings
4 Bretonnians
6 Lizardmen
11 Wood Elves
13 Dark Elves
14 High Elves
16 Skaven
18 Ogre Kingdoms
18 Dwarfs
19 Vampire Counts
20 Empire
21 Beasts of Chaos
22 Hordes of Chaos
25 Orcs & Goblins

---

Appendix : The most popular tournament armies
(include them in your preparations !)

# of Armies fielded (and % of total)

17 Wood Elves 13.28%
15 High Elves 11.72%
15 Dwarfs 11.72%
12 Empire 9.38%
9 Tomb Kings 7.03%
9 Lizardmen 7.03%
9 Ogre Kingdoms 7.03%
9 Beasts of Chaos 7.03%
8 Bretonnians 6.25%
7 Orcs & Goblins 5.47%
7 Hordes of Chaos 5.47%
6 Skaven 4.69%
3 Vampire Counts 2.34%
2 Dark Elves 1.56%

Warhammer Fantasy Grand Tournament Final Winners Announced

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Here's the news...

warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news

There's a pdf file which is not much use due to it's formatting so I have done my own analysis, which I will post in the next 24 hours.

Here are the highlights...

128 armies battled it out over 5 rounds each.

The overall tournament winner was a High Elves Army

I cannot ascertain the full tournament rules and points scoring system that was used so my analysis will concentrate on Victory Point analysis.
(in case the tournament included points for army painting etc).

But by Victory Points, it makes for VERY different reading, the winning army is...

Tomb Kings !

Check back in the next day or so for the full Warhammer Tournament Stats Analysis.

Warhammer Army Popularity - the popularity of each race in tournaments over the past 5 years

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A big thanks to M Roberts for compiling this
(during a boring day New Year's Eve at work when everyone else had the day off !)

In Summary, the pictures below show the overall most popularly fielded armies in Grand Tournaments from 2002-2007. The second picture is for the most recent tournament in 2007.

This should give you an idea of who you are most likely to face in tournaments and might help a bit if you like to practice your tactics :)

Here's the original link.

Lore of Fire vs Wood Elves, Lore of Metal vs Dwarfs and vs Bretonnia and Empire Knights

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Sick of those pesky Woodies or the Stunty's and fancy boy Bretonnian's armour saves ?

The Lore of Metal should be your preferred Warhammer magic against any army with a decent armour save. There are a couple of very handy spells to negate their saves.

If you're fighting Wood Elves and you're expecting a Treeman and some of his sapling Treekin to come out of their grow bags... Then take the Lore of Fire.

That is, unless you had any other tactical tricks up your sleeve and you're hoping for a specific spell from one of the other lists.

Warhammer Battle Magic Lore - how I ranked all the spells in terms of casting value effectiveness on the Battlefield.

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Click on the image to enlarge.

I'm sure this could lead to a lot of discussion / debate and maybe criticism (gulp)

I will change the spell effectiveness values on the basis of any well founded arguments that I see posted here.

The values to the right equate to my opinion of the best battlefield spells. It takes into account range, hit, strength and casting value. I valued "defensive" type spells in terms of how many hits/wounds this might save the caster or his army.

Please feel free to commetn by clicking on the little comment "speech bubble" icon beneath this text.

Thanks for reading.

Lores of Magic (a comparison of the Warhammer Lore of Fire, Metal, Shadow, Beasts, Heavens, Light, Life and Death)

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Here's the analysis of Warhammer Magic Lore I was talking about doing.

I went through all the spell lists in the Warhammer Rule Book and have given the spells a rating for:-

• Range
• Hits caused
• Strength of attack
• Casting cost and
• any special characteristics
  

Defensive Spells

Where a spell was defensive in nature, I have used my own judgement and experience and "rated" the spell in saved hits, and saved wounds (in an attempt to give a fair and level playing field in comparison with the attacking type spells)

Spell "impact"

I divided the "impact" of each spell (using a formula I devised which included range, hits caused and strength) with the spell's casting value to give an indication of the spell's cost effectiveness.

The Plan

Over the next few days I will be going into more depth with analysis on which Lore's are best for each army (difficult !) and which are best against each enemy (easier). Also, which are the best defensive Lores and the best attacking and balanced lores of magic.

I will also raise some argument by suggesting which spells I think are the best in the book !

My Initial Findings

Here are my initial findings (rated in battlefield usefulness - highest to lowest)
(note: these may change when I review the list again tomorrow in more detail).






I will be back with a lot more analysis of magic and all the reasoning behind the above table.

The Best Warhammer Army - 2006 Tournament Analysis

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After performing my 2007 tournament analysis and being suprised that Vampire Counts did so badly. I thought I'd go back to 2006 to try and find out why.

I analysed 2006 in more detail and it appears that Vampire Counts might not be quite as bad as we first thought. In 2007 the tournament was scored in Victory Points so, it seems, when a VC army starts to lose it does lose really badly.

However, 2006 was not scored in the same way. So I took the overall standings and the 2006 pts scored (not victory points). And, while the blood suckers did not feature anywhere in the top 10 (their first appearance is 15th)....

Vampire Counts actually have the best average standing of all armies in the 2006 tournament !

Interestingly, however, it seems that Vampire Counts are not tournament winners because when things go badly they get slaughtered (or maybe cannot inflict enough damage themselves, either way, when they lose - they lose BIG).

However, as a whole the blood bank burglars seem to hold their ground reasonably well. They seem to be a "drawing" army, or a minor victory army rather than a decisive victory army but they also seem prone to being massacred ! (so play with care).

The Best of class 2006

• 2006 saw the usual suspects at the top of the table, Skaven, Bretonnians and Wood Elves. With High Elves getting a mention for nearly being worthy of a mention :)

The Worst of 2006

• Orcs & Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms and Hordes of Chaos propped up the bottom of the table. Tomb Kings were the best of the worst.

Middle Class Mediocrity

• Dwarfs, Empire, Lizardmen, Beasts of Chaos and Daemonic Host kept each other company in the lands of mediocrity (although there were 3 Lizardman Armies in the top 10 so they are clearly capable of winning tournaments, but also 2 in the bottom 10 !)



• Dwarfs were the most consistent performers of those above.

The Overall most consistent...

• Vampire Counts ! - very suprisingly given how badly they seemed to perform in 2007

All other army types were not fielded enough to be worthy of a meaningful analysis, so I excluded them from my Excel Pivot Tables.

A comparison of all Warhammer Armies. All army units, Special Characters, Lords, Heroes, Monsters and Beasts compared to determine which are the strongest per point spent.

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I'm embarking on an ambitious project to mathematically compare all of the races, units and characters in the Warhammer World.

The result will be a rating for each individual model that will represent it's 'value for money' (that is, an indication of how well spent your points will be by using that model or those models, in the case of units, within your army)

I will use The Empire forces as my baseline for comparison purposes. The bottom line is that you will be able to ask questions like... 'should I include the repeating bolt thrower, the hero or a unit of 15 archers'

It is not going to be an exact science but will give an indication of which troop types are likely to be best value.

To start with I will probably exclude magic altogether as this, seems to me, to be the most difficult factor to 'value'

Anyway, I have to come up with an algorithm (fancy word for formula) first. Then make sure this base returns an index of 1 for all the Empire troops. Following that I will create a database of all the other races and compare them. An index of greater than 1 will indicate they are better value than Empire troops, less than 1 means worse than.

You will of course be able to use the algorithm to see which troop types in your army are best value. Can't decide between Phoenix Guard, Swordmasters or White Lions ? This will help you with your choice.

Obviously, this will not cater for tactics or the use of multiple units in combat but it should at least be fun to use and serve as an indicator as to which troops you should think about using first.

It's a big project and will take time but I hope to get something ready for the new year.

Keep an eye on my Stats and Analysis thread.

Which are the Best ? - Handgunnners / Crossbows / Thunderers / Quarellers / Bolt Thrower / High Elves / Wood Elf Waywatchers / Glade Guard or Peasants

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People have raved about Elven bowfire capabilities, especially the Wood Elf army.

I'm not so sure because after playing Dwarfs and Empire armies they seem pretty good at shooting me as well !

So, I decided to so some analysis into this.

I pretended there was an enemy unit with a toughness of 3, armour save 5+, no ward save. Then I tested some of the popular missile units against this unit (from maximum missile range until they got into charge range). (To even everything out I divided the results by the points cost of the missile troops)


Here are the results (best value for money units at the top of the list)

(pts) & unit

(14.0) High Elf Bolt Thower
(12.6) Dwarf Quarellers
(10.4) Empire Crossbows
(9.7) Empire Hand gunners
(8.3) Bretonnian Peasants
(7.9) Dwarf Tunderers
(7.3) Wood Elf Glade Guard
(6.6) High Elf Archers
(4.7) Wood Elf Way Watchers


It makes for interesting reading doesn't it !

It has to be mentioned though that this doesn't take into account any other abilities other than bow fire. Also, it favours gun powder weapons because I was using an enemy with a 5+ armour save, if the enemy had no armour save the Elves would be higher in the list. Also, bear in mind other factors like being able to move faster than the enemy and thus fire more.

What is the best Warhammer Army ?

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Were you wondering what the toughest, hardest to beat or most victorious Warhammer armies were.

Here's the answer to : Which Warhammer Army wins most ? or Which Warhammer army is the best ?

Skaven and Bretonnians are the best

And here's the answer to : Which is the worst Warhammer Army ? or which Warhammer army loses most ?

Vampire Counts the worst


There you have it. Check out my analysis though, if you like...
(based on average victory points from the Games Workshop 2007 Grand Tournament Final)

The best warhammer army


Note :
Dark Elves actually came 1st and Tomb Kings 3rd but there weren't many of those two armies so I excluded them. Bretonnians and Skaven were the most consistent and Vampire Counts the worst.

Fear not though Vampire fans the new Army list is out in Feb or March 2008 and rumour has it they are being toughened up !

Warhammer Army Analysis Errata (read me !)

(22-Sep-2008): anyone reading this from 2008 onwards should take it witha big pinch of salt !
Since this was written (Nov 2007) the High Elves, Vampire Counts, Chaos Daemons and Dark Elves books have all been published.

I have not analysed the 2008 Grand Tournament army lists and results yet because they are not available. But generally speaking, Daemons of Chaos, Vampires and High Elves now rank a lot higher than before. Many might say Daemons and Vampires are the toughest to beat.

I don't any any experience or much anecdotal evidence around or against Dark Elves yet.

Also, check the poll thread Best Warhammer Army (16-May-08) to see what my readers think.

Games Workshop 2007 tournament analysis : the Armies involved

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I'm performing some "scientific" anaylsis on the GW 2007 Grand Tournament Final.

Here's what I have so far...


The Armies involved (124 of them)

20 Wood Elves
18 Dwarfs
11 Lizardmen
10 High Elves
10 Hordes of Chaos
10 Skaven
8 Bretonnians
8 Vampire Counts
7 Orcs & Goblins
6 Beasts of Chaos
5 Empire
4 Tomb Kings
3 Dark Elves
3 Ogre Kingdoms
1 Chaos Dwarves


Average Net Victory Points

1960 …Dark Elves
1746 …Skaven
1672 …Tomb Kings
1592 …Bretonnians
1552 …Orcs & Goblins
488 …Wood Elves
95 …Dwarfs
-3 …Empire
-308 …Lizardmen
-540 …High Elves
-576 …Ogre Kingdoms
-735 …Hordes of Chaos
-755 …Beasts of Chaos
-3213 …Chaos Dwarves
-3218 …Vampire Counts
111 …Overall Average

Makes for interesting reading doesn't it ?!


You can probably ignore the Armies with say less than 5 entrants (because the results might not be representative - ie all 4 commanders might have been great or rubbish).



But it gives a clear picture in my opinion...

Skaven & Bretonnians are clearly the best tournament armies and Vampire Counts most certainly the worst ! (And I thought Vampire Counts were good !)

That new Vampire Count book can't come quickly enough in March 2008 !

Gameworkshop 2007 Tournament Winners : Warhammer Fantasy Battle

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Hi Folks,

Lots of people are interested in which are the most powerful armies in the Warhammer world. So I thought I'd do some scientific research :) to try and find out.

It's not easy to get details I can tell you so I ended up back at good old Gamesworkshop and took a look at the 2007 tournament.

I couldn't find details on all the armies entered although there were 450 people participating.

Anyway, there were 3 heat stages and a grand final stage and here are the results...
(please bear in mind that the winner's skill is also a very big factor here, not just the army fielded !)


The Tournament finals

Overall winner : Lizardman
2nd place : Wood Elf
3rd place : Wood Elf


the heats prior to the final:-

Heat 1
1st place : Wood Elf
2nd place : Dwarf
3rd place : Ogre Kingdoms

Heat 2
1st place : Skaven
2nd place : Orcs & Goblins
3rd place : Wood Elf

Heat 3
1st place: Skaven
2nd place : Skaven
3rd place : Dwarf

So, out of a possible 12 places for all 3 heats and the final the best armies were

Wood Elves (4 places)
Skaven (3 places)
Dwarves (2 places)
Orcs & Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms and Lizardmen (1 place each)

and we should mention that Lizardmen won the tournament as a whole !


So, it would seem that, in general the traditional army types have faired best. This might also be because more people have collected them and/or they have more practice playing those armies. However, it might also mean that tournament players choose those armies because they are the best on the battlefield !

It's probably best to take it with a pinch of salt but it was interesting to find out anyway, I hope you think so too.


I wonder if High Elves will be in amongst the honours in 2008 ?